Podcast: Neil Campbell, Chief Growth Officer at smol
August 4, 2023 •Sophie Colquhoun
smol is one of the fastest UK cleaning and laundry brands with their plastic-free alternatives, and in this episode Neil shares how they did it!
We cover how they have built a sustainable brand that reaches mass markets, how they instil customer loyalty, and how they compete with much larger and international, household names plus lots, lots more.
It's a great episode that shares the opportunities and challenges of being a disruptive eco-brand.
Listen to Neil's episode below:
Or if you prefer, read the full interview below:
Now, on the show with me today is Neil Campbell. Neil is the Chief Growth Officer at Smol which is the fantastic eco brand that you really should have heard about by now and incidentally actually, if you are looking for an example of a fresh, really effective direct to consumer website they’ve done a really good job of telling you exactly what they do and why it matters and they’ve made it look really simple which I think we’ll all know is much easier said than done. So, Neil listen I’m delighted to have you on the podcast, thank you for coming along and how are you doing?
Neil Campbell: I’m very well thank you, yeah, it’s good to be here.
Sorcha O’Boyle: Yeah, so I wonder could you just tell us what is Smol and what have you set out to do?
Neil Campbell: Yeah, so I first think it’s probably worth explaining to people that Smol is spelt S-M-O-L so it’s a bit of a kind of play on words. But very simply we are a subscription cleaning business and we’ve set out to make the laundry and cleaning industry much more sustainable and much more planet friendly. And we do that by, you know, sending cleaning products like laundry capsules and dishwasher tabs and cleaning sprays directly to consumers homes. So, very much like a sort of [Inaudible 00:01:21] club but for laundry and kind of household cleaning products. When we sort of say that we can be more sustainable what for us that means is a lot less single use plastic packaging. The odd time that we do use plastic bottles it’s 100% PCR so Post Consumer Recycled bottles and we combine that with a bottle return scheme so we’re reducing the plastic waste. It’s also about sort of no animal testing or no animal derived products. You know you get some things like fabric conditioner that actually have animal fats in them in some cases and so we eliminate those. We try to reduce the CO2 by just shipping less water around the country so a lot of these kind of sprays are actually a little bit of chemical and a lot of water. So, we kind of ship you the cleaning agents and you dilute them yourselves and reuse the bottle. We also just reduce unnecessary chemicals there’s things in lots of cleaning products like foaming agents which are designed to make it look like your products been cleaned really well so we get rid of those. We also help people manage the dosage. So, we have things like pumps or so you’re not pouring fabric conditioner you’re pumping it out and that means that you use exactly how much you need not just kind of everyone loses those little plastic balls that you put in and it’s far too much into the machine so that’s another one. For us there’s also generally encouraging people to wash less there’s a lot of we do on wash well, we have a sort of #washwell kind of programme where we say when should you actually run your machine? How do you actually refreshen your clothes and when do you really need to wash at sort of 40 degrees versus 30 degrees because there’s a massive energy difference in that. And just things like are you aware of how much energy it costs to run your washing machine. And that’s really interesting because that actually hits people’s pockets as well. So, at the time when everyone’s worried about energy crisis and cost of living actually washing less and washing better is really good. And then finally on our kind of bit of sustainable we do a lot for just sort of those who are disadvantaged and a bit less fortunate than ourselves. So, we support a programme called The Hygiene Bank that really helps kind of distribute laundry capsules to food banks and we also do a thing called Suds in Schools where we raise money to really help people who are hygiene poor and helping get over that. So yeah, lots of things to kind of make the industry a lot more kind of sustainable.
Sorcha O’Boyle: Yeah, and you’re quite an unusual I’m going to say consumer brand when you tell people to actually buy less. That’s not, not [Talk Over 00:03:32]
Neil Campbell: In that case it’s not a, as long as you buy it from us, we don’t mind if you buy it less and it’s interesting because being a direct to consumer company that you get real data on peoples usage habits. So, you’re going to get to see exactly how much they’re using. You get to see the range of usage and I’d love to do a tool where people can come and say like where do you sit and how much actual detergent you’re using and things like that. It’s central to what we do and really the founding ethos of the company was eco-friendly, or planet friendly or sustainable products whatever you want it, to help people make those choices we really believe it’s about getting 95% of people to make those choices not the 5%. And in order to do that you really have to hit a mass market sort of proposition. So, the founders of Smol were ex-Unilever and so if anyone understands they kind of know that Unilever mass market proposition it’s Unilever. And so, for us that means like the products have got to work so it’s got to be a case of they’ve got to be effective. You don’t want to have to use five times as much to get half the cleaning power. So, it’s got to work and be as good as the big brands on that level. They’ve got to be at a price point that matches as well. There’s no point in saying, “This is great, it’s all natural but it costs 50% more”. Because that’s not a feasible choice for the mass market of consumers and then almost the last part of that is, “Oh yeah and the product is sustainable as well” and we do all this great stuff that I kind of talked about. So, combining those has basically been the secret behind our success and the reason why we’ve kind of grown quite well and we’re very pleased with where we’re going.
Sorcha O’Boyle: Yeah, but you’re in a tough space because the big brands and you’re a challenger brand obviously but the big ones like Unilever and Procter & Gamble they’ve been around for so long and there’s so much familiarity. How do convince a customer to pick you over them when they’ve been using you for probably since they were a toddler.
Neil Campbell: Yeah, it’s an interesting one and I think if you were to choose your competition, not that anyone ever gets to choose their competition. But if you get to choose your competition you wouldn’t choose for global international giants like Procter & Gamble and Unilever who have been in people’s homes and in people’s minds either when they’re backed up with huge advertising budgets to you know and have this great brand recognition. I don’t think they’re the ones that you’d choose to go up against but it is possible and the way we kind of do it is that you’ve got to start very much as an almost a niche brand so you’ve got to really target the early adopters and the people who are very motivated by this even though that we probably could have targeted them with higher price points and everything but we’re targeting them with a kind of mass market proposition and through that you build deeper relationships, get really good feedback on the product, you can quickly make changes to the kind of product, that kind of flows through in everything that you kind of do. So, for example the early iteration of Smol products they had plastic clamshell packaging made out of recycled plastic but again people said, “Look that’s not what we want we really want to kind of go to full cardboard”, and when we changed that that was a kind of big change. And so, by having that motivated kind of core base that you can learn from and test new products on and see what works in [Inaudible 00:06:17] propositions you can build and feed your way into a sizeable customer base and almost where we are now where we’re building an essentially a mass market brand. We’re calling for increased awareness and everything that kind of comes with that. So, you’ve got to start small obviously, but you can do it if you have the right product and the kind of right learning mechanisms in place.
Sorcha O’Boyle: Yeah, and your subscription model I think actually it’s really good I tried it out earlier and there’s a little tool on the website where you can say how many washes you do a week, and it will recommend how frequently you’ll get your subscription. Which is from a consumer point of view it’s quite fun to use and it’s really, really, good.
Neil Campbell: Yeah, that’s one of our core principles actually is we’ve got to be convenient, and a lot of people come to Smol with a kind of conception is it a monthly box, I don’t use that much, there’s just me at home or you know and our whole thing is no, no, it is entirely kind of tailored to you. Firstly, you can try the product for a pound we just ask you to cover the postage. So, you can try the product for only a pound across all our core products and then when you set up the subscription, the subscription we ask you some basic questions and that could mean oh your box of capsules is coming once every two weeks if you’re a heavy user or it could be it’s coming once every six months if you’re an occasional user. And that’s really important to us because as we said before we don’t want you to wash more. We want you to kind of you know, to fit in with your schedule. And so, in this world there’s a real problem that if you give people too much product then they kind of go “Well, I’ve got loads I’ll never get through this, cancel”. And that’s what we don’t. We want to have this magic service whereby just as you think you’re getting low and you’re thinking, “I wonder if I need to get some more Smol?” it turns up on your doorstep and we have enough data now that we can do that and we can sort of help people make those chooses and guide them towards what’s right for them and things so yeah it works well.
Sorcha O’Boyle: And are you worried about subscription fatigue at all amongst consumers?
Neil Campbell: It’s an interesting one because definitely there is, if you ask people in a world of, I have a Netflix subscription, I have Disney+ and NOW TV and Amazon Prime and maybe Apple+ as well and you know suddenly a lot of people go through the hang on I’m just simply not watching this enough to pay even if it is only £6 a month or whatever the kind of cost is. So, I think people react badly to that and sort of go, “Right I have to get off that”. I think it’s for us it’s a little bit different because these are products that people need. They are commodity products or they are household cleaner, I just need to have some sort of household cleaner. And so, I think it’s slightly different in that way but at the same time we wouldn’t ever want someone to kind of resent us kind of having a subscription with them. So, one of the things that we do to build trust is how we would never send anything out to a customer without informing them that they’re going to be billed and if you kind of contrast with the Netflix who will happily bill you regardless of whether or not you’ve switched on the TV or not kind of thing. And by the way they know how much you’re watching so they’d know if you’re using it or not. So, we would never do that, and I think that’s one of the core things that we use to build trust.
Sorcha O’Boyle: Yeah, absolutely and I think actually that word trust is important for the disrupter brand so yeah that’s the biggie. But can you tell because you’re background personally, I think is a little bit unusual in retail and that you, you come from engineering originally.
Neil Campbell: Well, I’m not sure it’s that new.
Sorcha O’Boyle: I think it depends. I think often maybe people who, often founders of company’s tend to be they’re in for the love of the product. But then I think maybe someone with an engineering background who’s maybe a bit more in on the data and a little bit less, I don’t want to use emotional, but you know what I mean.
Neil Campbell: It’s probably a little bit, it’s a bit different from a marketing kind of background. So, I think you’re right a lot of people with marketing backgrounds come from a much more emotional, emphatic, understand the kind of customer. My background I’m chemical engineer by training and in fact my first ever graduate job after I graduated was I used to work on oil rigs in West Africa. So, I used to spend quite a lot of time in Angola and the Congo but that’s a very long time ago. But the main reason I kind of got into to engineering is that I wanted to do practical maths. I was a very kind of numbers focused kind of geeky person, and you know I really like that sort of scientific method and for me chemical engineering was just a really where [Inaudible 00:10:16] apply those numbers to real world situations. And actually, through my work in startups and the kind of places like Smol, I get an opportunity to kind of basically apply that knowledge all the time. So, in the subscription business, especially on direct to consumer I’d say you have all this data on customers, you know exactly how much they’re buying. If you change something on the website, you know exactly how people kind of react to that. And so that basically means I have this really fun job where I spend my day devising or helping my team to devise little experiments that will, you know, what will customers do. So, you know, if we configure the products in this way how does it look if we, this content into our ads not only do they convert but what kind of customers do we get eventually three months down the line once we work out what kind of subscribers they are. And so, if’s just really fun to do that in a company that is large enough that we’ve got enough customers that it’s, you know, there’s enough customers kind of doing that but also small enough that you can get into the detail. If I was working at Unilever or something it would be far too big, and I’d never be able to run a little bit of analysis myself or design a little test to do this stuff. And so yeah, it’s just really fun that way and actually most of my career has been in those sort of like data focused sort of Series B startup companies where we’re looking at this stuff growing. And to come back on your point around marketing and the more emotional angle actually a lot of marketing is moving that way and this sort of thing of growth marketing and I obviously got a Chief Growth Officer title, growth is really how do I think about the full life cycle of the company and think about the acquisition but also what do the customers become once I’ve acquired them and once I have a relationship of them but how do I underpin all that with data. So, how do I make sure that I know exactly what’s going and tease out these insights about what works and what doesn’t work, and you need the kind of data to do that. So, I’m not the person to give you an amazing TV ad and I never will be but I’m definitely the person to tell you what kind of customers TV ads produce and if they’re any good and that kind of stuff. I quite like it that way.
Sorcha O’Boyle: And has anything surprised you about how customers react to new products or new things that you’ve tried?
Neil Campbell: Well, the thing surprised me actually is just how different customers are. Smol is the first time I ever worked in the cleaning industry. I’ve kind of consumer goods industry before that I was working in food and drink with Naked Wines or in FinTech and wealth management with Moneybox and certainly the two things that surprised me at Smol one is just how into the kind of or how attached people are to their laundry in the sense of they will have a scent and we have customers who rave about it, “Oh my God this smells amazing and it’s so good”, and other customers who are like, “Oh yeah it’s terrible. I just can’t get it. Can you, I love the idea and you know can you just change the scent for me?” It’s strange when you get that sort of polarisation and kind of opinions and things like that. So that’s all just really interesting and then the other is just quite how much people vary in terms of how they react to things so when we try things on the website you think you’re going to get one response and then you just get something totally different on a different level. One thing for example we have what’s called a cart abandon flow where basically people who have got to the point of giving us their email address but they haven’t checked out we just try and convert them and we tried to convert them more by giving them a discount and we got less people.
Sorcha O’Boyle: Really?
Neil Campbell: That was because-. Yeah, I think people just look at it. But firstly, it’s hard to give a discount off something that’s a pound to try it, so it’s quite hard work so you end up giving a discount off a sort of future order but also I think people kind of thought, “Oh that just feels a bit spammy and I’m not so interested anymore.”
Sorcha O’Boyle: Yeah.
Neil Campbell: So that’s one of those surprising things where we kind of go, “Wow! I was convinced that was going to be the other way”. But data’s the data and as long as you’ve tested it properly then that’s what you’ve got to go with.
Sorcha O’Boyle: And have you tested like a freebie at that stage?
Neil Campbell: We haven’t tested a freebie because that obviously costs a lot of money and there’s a general thing in growth is that firstly like good customers are found not made or certainly they’re 80% found and about 20% made. And so, you’ve got to be really careful about who you let sort of in as a customer. If you lower the boundaries so much that the product is free, you’ll get lots of customers, but the quality will come down massively and so that just kind of costs you. So, we’ve never gone that far just because it would cost us a lot. But, we’re always looking for mechanisms that make it very easy for people to get the product. So, a lot of our customers that we have a sort of ongoing relationship with, we work on systems whereby if you’re getting a pack anyway how do we give you the option to test another product because we’re shipping it to you anyway and then that we can effectively do for free and things like that. So that’s lots of things that we’re looking at.
Sorcha O’Boyle: Yeah, appreciate it and am I right in saying that you sell through some Sainsbury’s stores?
Neil Campbell: We do, yes, we’re a part of the Sainsbury’s Future Brands programme and so we’re probably in about 450 or so Sainsbury’s stores. Again, everything for us is a kind of test at this stage and so we kind of put it out there and see how customers react. We do lots of things and this is where I get into the data and all geeky again which is do customers who have a Sainsbury’s store, are they more likely to then join Smol or are they more likely to cancel their Smol subscription because they can buy it in Sainsbury’s. Do people who join us tell us that they found us in Sainsbury’s? These are all the kind of things we test when we kind of go into retail distribution and ultimately, we are a cleaning brand and therefore you have to be in the place where people buy their cleaning products and for 95% of people that is in a supermarket. So, we’d be mad not to try it in some form.
Sorcha O’Boyle: And have you been in there long enough that you can start to make some observations about whether it’s a good avenue of discovery for you?
Neil Campbell: Yes, so we’ve been in there a year now and we’re just right at that point of sort of point of decision of like okay, do we continue or how do we reconfigure it in the kind of future. So, we’re kind of going through that at the minute and so yeah, we’re just working out what works but we’re not 100% sure yet what the future path is.
Sorcha O’Boyle: And I think I’m right in saying also that you’re, you’ve been on a bit of a recruitment drive lately. So can you tell me a little bit about how you go about building your own team, you know what people you look for, what skills you look for and how you try to manage that. Because that’s a dark art if ever there was one.
Neil Campbell: Yeah well, I’d say when you get into management you spend a lot of time finding the right people and then hopefully getting out of their way and letting them get on with things. So me in terms of how I run the team as I said before I kind of do a bunch of acquisitions stuff, I do some engagement stuff and some data and then we obviously work very closely with kind of product because a lot of growth isn’t just about acquiring more customers or sending them emails it’s actually about what is the product configuration that makes the whole thing work and it’s the sort of combined body and some product and everything else. But on the people side of thing so I have various people who run chunks and I always like if people have a thing that they own that is theirs, that is their responsibility. So have someone who looks after Smol’s marketing so TikTok and Facebook and Google ads and things like that and someone who looks after influencers which is something we’re trying to build up, someone who looks after partnerships, and both are affiliate partnerships that are offline and then someone who does engagement and a team of two who do data. But what we’re kind of looking for there is can we give them something that’s theirs to own and therefore they can take pride in pushing it forward and really making it happen and owning those results. So, we try to divide up so even on our data side we have one guy who looks after data importing and how we can import that into the business and another guy looks after the more ad hoc analysis, “Oh right I’ve got this thought”. It’s more kind of changes every day. So, you give them that ownership and then when you’re recruiting people in so I’m always looking for people who can handle that, you know, so can [Inaudible 00:17:52] say “Right I don’t need to be told what to do I just need a bit of guidance and so my job then is to sort of [Inaudible 00:18:01] “Are you being ambitious enough? Are you testing this in the right way? Do we have the right metrics? Do you need me to go and remove a kind of a barrier for you”. And so, what I’m really looking for then is people who firstly have the functional skill to be able to operate at that level, secondly are open to this idea of experimentation and testing and bringing data into what they’re doing but then thirdly just have the ambition to kind of go “Right, I want to take this and I want to make it and try stuff out”. And then yeah that’s kind of how I recruit the team. The major thing I really look for any time I ask interview questions and things is curiosity. If people are kind of curious about how things work and they’re in the right mindset to work in the growth team.
Sorcha O’Boyle: And you mentioned there that you’re kind of branching out into influencer marketing. Can you tell me how have customers responded to that so far do you think?
Neil Campbell: Yeah, well influencer marketing fits into a much wider sphere and I guess the journey we’ve been on is firstly we start off going TikTok. We want to know if TikTok is something that we are going to invest in or not and it’s okay if the answers no, if we could just go, “It’s not for us”. But what’s not acceptable is to kind of go, “Oh we’re not sure shall we spend some more money?” So, we went out and sort of said let’s spend money on TikTok and make that happen. Now, with TikTok it’s short form video, videos obviously a lot harder to produce it’s kind of creative content so we had to kind of build up with our design team, “Okay we just need people who can produce this content for us”. And we find out the best way to do that is mostly inhouse because you get all the learnings yourself and you need tools to help you out in working out, it’s like, “Okay may TikTok’s not getting me clicks and conversions but what are these impressions worth and is it shaping other channels?” And we generally got that working very well and we got comfortable with it. One of the added bonuses is that all the social media platforms are moving to short form videos so Facebook, Instagram stories and reels and everything so even on YouTube short videos. So, what we find is that we’re producing all this content for TikTok and then it works on these other channels as well. But then the demand for content is so high that you sort of say, “Okay we can’t just do it all inhouse we’ve got to look outside.” So, we started off the influencer bit by kind of going, “We just need content creators, and we’d want more video coming our way”. And so we started off doing some of that stuff, paying for it, getting some of the kind of UGC kind of users videos and then we kind of thought look we have a product which is very mission driven, people really love the product and they really love sharing the fact that it’s doing something in the world. So, we just kept, ticked all those boxes of saying people like this it’s the kind of product that people would actively kind of share and talk to with their audience. So, where we are on that journey and I admit we are very, very early days in this but we’ve got someone working on it, we’re starting to scale it up and saying, “Okay what would a head influencer programme look like? What are the kind of elements that you need to make that work? What’s the right mix of macro influencers and micro influencers and actually maybe even the nano things”. And so we’re kind of heading over, kind of testing a few things around a programme which is on the nano side it’s much more about okay we just give them free product and we give them a kind of like an affiliate so if they generate a customer then we pay them a little bit of money for that and then on the micro side is a case of okay it’s paired but what does the brief have to be? How do we kind of balance the right size of influencer etc., etc. So, it’s still very early days for us but we’re kind of making small strides.
Sorcha O’Boyle: Yeah, it sounds like you’ve got a very innovative culture in the way you just kind of think, “Let’s try something and see if it works, it does, it doesn’t”.
Neil Campbell: Yeah, it depends if you think that’s an innovative culture or a kind of experimentation culture, but I think it’s definitely a bit of both. Certainly, as a company we’re innovative because we’re always out there sort of thinking of new products and new ways to kind of remove plastic from people’s homes and things so we’re always out there doing that and we have a design team who are very, very, focused on making smaller brand and so making sure that everything that we kind of do, really high quality and they do an amazing job of that. And then I guess my job is to kind of come in and sort of say, right but how do we make sure that we can test these things and we don’t take anything for granted. You know, what is the right configuration for these products and have we got the price points right and even through to we test the messaging on the site and some of that conversation rate sort of optimisation stuff through the site. For me that’s the sort of last part of the chain which is, “Okay we’re developing all this stuff, but does it actually work or not?” And a lot of cases the answer is yes it does work but we still need to optimise it more and so that’s the kind of stuff that we’re doing all the time both on the product side and on the messaging side all the ads.
Sorcha O’Boyle: And what have been the highlights of your time with Smol?
Neil Campbell: Almost got too many to list because every week kind of brings up something new from launching new products like we launched a washing-up liquid or as I mentioned cracking a kind of channel like TikTok to make that work for acquiring customers. The one we’re most excited about at the minute is our Smol+ service. So up to this point we have always shipped boxes to people, individual kind of letter box sized boxes. So, they go individually via Royal Mail, they go through peoples letterboxes it an absolute great solution and Royal Mail’s actually very CO2 friendly because the postman is pretty much walking past your house everyday anyway. But increasingly as we have more products, we have more customers with lots of subscriptions with us. What we sort of find is that a lot of people are just saying, “Well that’s a bit crazy. Why don’t you send me all the stuff together?” But at the same time, we don’t want to, as I said earlier, we don’t want to go down a sort of monthly box or a kind of regular [Inaudible 00:23:19] it doesn’t really make sense. So Smol+ is this really nice service whereby essentially, we look at your next two to three months of orders that you have lined up with Smol. So maybe there’s dishwashers coming in five days and laundry capsules coming in ten days and then 20 days after that and things and we basically combine all those orders and say, okay this is, gets you over a £20 threshold if you’re willing to take and for some customers it will be the next three months of orders, for some it will be the next three weeks of orders we say, “If you’re willing to take these in one box then we’ll ship it to you next day, I’ll ship it by DPD and DPD offer a great carbon neutral service. We ship that to them, it’s a better service for them, doesn’t cost them any extra but at the same time it maintains that individuality of the subscription. So, you could get a box which is as I say has two laundry subscriptions in it which you get every kind of 20 days anyway and then one dishwash subscription that you get every 40 days and then it’s also got two bottles of fabric conditioner in as well which you only get every six months. It’s just a really nice service. It’s been designed really well by our product and UX guys and it’s a lovely product because it’s a win, win. We obviously get to combine it into one delivery which is great, customer gets it next day delivery which is kind of great for them and it’s just going really well. So, it’s one of those things it’s been sort of picked up, customers are kind of liking it, we’re getting good feedback on it. From my perspective there’s just a load that we can test and sort of optimise on it and it’s going to make it even better, but it just feels like, okay that’s a step-change and [Inaudible 00:24:42] future. So, there’s things like that that are just kind of really great and the best thing about it actually is that it essentially came from a customer request. So, it’s one of those things that we went through the full life cycle of, we’re [Inaudible 00:24:51] a customer requests this, we analysis it and sort of say, “Okay how big could this be?” We then design it to the design and product management sort of level. The dev’s implement it, we can get it right in terms of the sort of the internal testing, we launch it, it gets great feedback and gives us a whole bunch of extra ideas for the future that we can go on to develop further. And yeah, it’s just really nice when something like that lands and that’s something we’ve been talking about for about the last nine months, so the fact that we’ve launched in the last month is really exciting.
Sorcha O’Boyle: Oh yeah, that’s brilliant and lovely for customers too because it’s another touchpoint for them to realise how much you’re thinking about them and caring for them as well.
Neil Campbell: Yeah, and also there’s some customers it doesn’t work for. So one of the conversations I’ve been having today is like how do we make sure that the customers who are “No I need this to go through my letterbox”. Go, “Okay that’s fine we can still do that as well”, and it makes it work for them that level as well.
Sorcha O’Boyle: Listen, I just love the idea of Smol. Like I said from the website down to the way it’s organised I just think it’s a great, really, really, great brand. I love it.
Neil Campbell: It’s interesting actually when I first got to Smol I was like, “Oh my God these design guys are a bit, you know, they’re a bit over the top in terms of like making this stuff look nice and being all but actually it all adds up to a really, really, great experience and I have to say I’m now an absolute kind of convert just everything from the boxes to the copy on the website to the look and feel of everything it just works really well.
Sorcha O’Boyle: Yeah, actually that sort of sums it up it just works.
Neil Campbell: That what’s it’s ended in so yeah but hopefully we’ll have, continue to have a lot more success off that, on that business.
Sorcha O’Boyle: For sure, listen you to [Inaudible 00:26:14] Neil that was a real pleasure, it’s great to talk to you.
Neil Campbell: Yes, thank you very much for having me on I really enjoyed the chat.
Sorcha O’Boyle: That was Neil Campbell Chief Growth Officer at Smol. Thanks for listening to this week’s podcast and don’t forget that you can catch up on all of our previous episodes wherever you get your podcasts. That’s it for now so from me Sorcha O’Boyle and all of us at More2 take care and bye, bye.